How can we as a community get our voice heard with the devs regarding grind?

[AirOnG]

Any advantage is an advantage chowdah, no matter how small. If a person spawned with 110 health instead of 100 health in quake it's a minimal difference but it's still an advantage. No amount of arguing is going to convince you a level playing field is the best for fairplay and an enjoyable gaming experience.

[BlaineTog]

Originally Posted by AirOnG

Any advantage is an advantage chowdah, no matter how small. If a person spawned with 110 health instead of 100 health in quake it's a minimal difference but it's still an advantage. No amount of arguing is going to convince you a level playing field is the best for fairplay and an enjoyable gaming experience.

It is obviously the best, barring extenuating circumstances. Such as that of creating a dicotomy between PvP and PvE. You couldn't be the best in the world. You could only hope to be the best in PvP or PvE. Sux.

As far as skills are concerned, I don't think there would be any significant problems with allowing everyone, even PvE characters, access to them all in PvP matches. After all, it's so very easy to change them around anyway.

Allowing all items, however ... that's a pickle. You can't let PvE characters have access to all of them, because they can't change their items around without significant work.

Maybe ... there could be an "Arena Quartermaster" NPC in each PvP arena. Talk to him and he'll give you whatever you want, but you have to give it back when you leave (in other words, it dissapears if you go into any non-PvP area).

That might work, but I'd feel really really stupid walking around with my normal armor in PvE when I knew there was really awesome stuff just around the corner.

[Awol Duteq]

If it were everquest mentality we'd be a year into the game by now. With people getting their elites and full characters after ONE month, I don't think you can even relate this to EQ, FFXI, DAoC, SWG or ANY mmo available that has grind. I don't play nearly as much as I had to for EQ and I have two 'nearly' full built characters.

[Corwin_Andros]

Ya know, I truly am doing my best to understnd this "I can't have fun without all the toys" hyper-competative mindset you seem to thrive on. It just doesn't strike me as fun to have to stress over if Joe Schmoe on the other team might possibly have a skill I don't have. I just go out and play and do my damndest to win and if I lose I try to figure it out and try something different the next time. If I get tired of losing or tired of winning for that matter, I go do something else.. Its about fun and not about stressing over what the next guy has.

Obviously you and those like you are incapable of simply relaxing and enjoying the game as it was designed.. I truly feel sorry for you. It must be a somewhat tortured existance to see every facet of even a simple game as some sort of desperate competition like it's a life and death mission and not a recreational activity.

I'm sure the folks at ANet are looking at what they can do to make you people happier, but I'm afraid that nothing short of breaking the game and catering to your need for instant gratification is ever going to make any of you happier with what you are playing. They have already made plans to make skill and rune acquisition easier for you and you are not happy. Rather than even waiting to see how it turns out you still persist in wanting a "give it all to me right now" button.

Is your need for gratification so great that you would rather they rip their masterpiece to shreds just to make you happy? Do you care about all the other players that do not share your point of view? Take a long honest look at what you are asking for.

Personally I hope that they do find a way that will function for PvP people to get the things they need without having to spend too much time in the other side of the game. I honestly don't think it totally fair that you have to spend as much time as you do getting things unlocked. But they are addressing this issue. They are trying things a little at a time to see at what point it satisfies the needs of the majority without messing up their baby.

I didn't and still don't like the fact that PvE guilds have to rely on PvP players to get sigils for guild halls. The reason is that having a guild hall is an essential part of the game regardless of how you play it and should not be held away from anyone based on playing style. To be honest I didn't expect the sigil situation to improve as it has since they made the changes a few days ago. But it has improved to the point where people are about done stressing over it.

Have patience and let the devs do their thing. You may never be completely happy with what the end results are, but hopefully satisfied enough to keep playing. The thing is you just have to wait and see.



But do try to stop taking it all too seriously.. In the end.. It's just a game.

[AirOnG]

GJ to all of you believing there must be grind and an uneven playing field. It doesn't matter how comparatively it is to other mmorpgs; there's still significant mindnumbingly repetitive actions you must do before you can play pvp on a level playing field. I just can't understand how you believe there must be a completely arbitrary uneven playing field when it could be even and fair. We'll have to agree to disagree before I start namecalling.

Your mentality that acquiring runes through farming is somehow "earning" it and a level pvp playing field is having it "handed to you on a silver platter" is severely flawed.

[BE|Dac]

It comes down to the fact.

With runes and skills you have an advantage.

Coming from an alpha player, competitive player, etc.

The skills unlocked gives about a 25% bonus to how good you are.

The runes unlocked give about another 25% bonus.

Now this difference is huge on all levels of play.


Runed:

+1 bonus to all skills, no cost.
+50 health, no cost.
+2 bonus to a skill, -50 health
+3 bonus to a skill, -75 health.

So you can basically

Runed:

16 Fire Magic, -25 health, 12 base +1 hat, +3 rune,

unruned,

13 Fire Magic, 12 base +1 hat.

Now,

13 vrs 16

7 damage a skill point on a skill such as fireball, meteor shower, etc.

7x3 = 21.

21 Extra damage.

Now this 21 extra damage over 8 characters, the bonus giving the team an advantage.

Now imagine this same bonus for monks, which is at a much higher rate.

Orison

3.5 health per point, so the difference is 10.5,

63.5 health per heal from orison, Unruned,

74 health per heal orison, runed.

86% as effective.

Now, This does not include the +1 bonus to divine favor aka +3.

so say, 12 divine,
vrs
13 divine

36 vrs 39,

so it adds in another +3 health per heal.

This may seem small,

but this +10% etc advantage is a lot!

not to mention you can sup/major etc.

Now this is just in runes, with skills you have a lot more options.

#1. With more skills you can learn the game a lot faster!

You can see all the skills, test different combinations on a whim, not have to spend x hours to get new skills you need. With experience in UAS it was clear the competition was getting tougher and tougher.

#2 Ability to put together good builds

Putting down a build on paper and knowing it will be a few weeks - roughly 3-4 weeks for your ENTIRE team to get the skills to even run it. Which is ridiculous, understand this is a TEAM game, therefore all 8 need to be set, anythign less is less effective.

Now understand how the game works and people have diff skills and unlocked things, so you cant just have someone play whatever is needed, its impossible because he wont have the skills nor practice with the skills to compete.

#3

It's not fun having to grind. It MAY not be grind to you, but to a PORTION of the community it is, this portion is very large imo, and should be heard.



Now what this creates is a crappy PVP game, and thank you all for your great insights into High level pvp which you have never experienced. I'm sure I could go to your work and tell you how to do it much better, even though ive never done it before.

It's the same thing, you infer its not so bad when you have never TRIED getting all the skills. Some people are content with being sucky at PvP, I for one have not grinding out more then 1/6 of the skills.

It is just plain stupid I have to WORK in a game i play for FUN.

(off the record, I think they should take away internet access at the special schools so less people will post on these forums.)

[BE|Dac]

All of the following is qouted directly from www.guildwars.com



Built for Competition

If you like Player-versus-Player competition, Guild Wars was made for you. In addition to building up a character by undergoing missions and quests, you can choose to create a character specifically for head-to-head PvP competition or guild warfare. The game is designed to reward player skill and teamwork, not time spent playing, so you won't need to spend hundreds of hours leveling up your character to compete.


them with a new mission-based design that eliminates some of the more tedious aspects of those games.

and are creating a game that is both easy to learn and compelling to play long term, and yet does not require players to spend hundreds of hours slogging through the preparation just to get to the fun bits.

[Lazarous]

Is your need for gratification so great that you would rather they rip their masterpiece to shreds just to make you happy? Do you care about all the other players that do not share your point of view? Take a long honest look at what you are asking for.

This question needs to be posed to all those who keep screaming at the pvp crowd to either like the game as is or leave. How does having pvp only districts with all unlocked affect normal pve play? It splits the game in two...so? The ones who are doing the unreasonable whining are those who have to feel that the time they spend grinding is meaningful, not those that simply want to play the well-balanced pvp portion of the game. If i wanted grind i'd go to a game that did it better. At least their treadmills have more perks.

Have patience and let the devs do their thing. You may never be completely happy with what the end results are, but hopefully satisfied enough to keep playing. The thing is you just have to wait and see.

The devs have until their expansion pack or until a competitor releases a game that does what GW promised to do, whichever comes first. Its one of the nice things about this game not being p2p. That said, they're going to have a hell of a time winning me personally back to spend money on something they release. In the meantime, i'm badmouthing this game to any and all people i know who were interested in buying it.

Laz

[Shadow_Avenger]

If you read one of the other post the Devs actually stated that this is not going to happen and that some wont like this but tuff. They are looking at alternative methods, they are adding more bosses and opportunities to gain these Elite skills, they have already altered the runes drops.
So be happy with what you are getting.

[Shadow_Avenger]

Originally Posted by Lazarous

The devs have until their expansion pack or until a competitor releases a game that does what GW promised to do, whichever comes first. Its one of the nice things about this game not being p2p. That said, they're going to have a hell of a time winning me personally back to spend money on something they release. In the meantime, i'm badmouthing this game to any and all people i know who were interested in buying it.

Laz

Good luck to you, seeing as every review has given it 85%+ bad mouth it all day, in the end people will just think as I do, if its that bad don't playing and it is obviously not the game for you.
Total War:Rome got 85%+ reviews, but I wouldn't buy it as it is not my type of game, if I did buy it I would chalk it up as experiance and not waste my breath bad mouthing it as with every thing its horses for courses.

I run a NWN campaign PW, and the amount of times I have had players "spit there dummies out over something they don't like is untrue." My answer as always been if you threatening to leave, leave, the rest of the community wont miss you, infact they will be glad you are gone as they wont have to put up with you whinging.
This comment is not directed at you personally Laz, more to all the players of that mentality.

[Lazarous]

Good luck to you, seeing as every review has given it 85%+ bad mouth it all day, in the end people will just think as I do, if its that bad don't playing and it is obviously not the game for you.
Total War:Rome got 85%+ reviews, but I wouldn't buy it as it is not my type of game, if I did buy it I would chalk it up as experiance and not waste my breath bad mouthing it as with every thing its horses for courses.

I've already dissuaded 2 people i know from buying the game, and they were all set to do so. Because of my getting the game, a.net has lost 50 dollars. A small victory perhaps, but a real one nonetheless. As this thread is about finding ways to have a.net hear the voices of its players, a protest targetted at their pocketbook seems appropriate.

As to the rest of the community not missing people that leave. thats true right up until the point where the game dies alone and forgotten. Probably not going to happen soon with GW, but a company *cannot* use this as a business model and hope to survive.

[Corwin_Andros]

Folks, I'm not saying grinding is all great. Like I said.. I honestly hope they can fix it well enough so that at least the majority of you will be content enough to play the game.

I'd liken what you are talking about as grind as to having to do all those damnable infusion runs over and over and over and...Only for skills and things. I appreciate that you want to have a more level playing field for optimum competition in PvP.

But the way the game is designed it isn't possible without breaking the system totally in two. They can put things in place to make it "easier" to get skills and lessen the grinding you see yourselves as doing. But they have to do that in such a way that it doesn't totally nerf the game for all the hundreds of thousands of people that play the game for PvE only..

Actually it would be rather interesting if they had a seperate game that was something along the line of "Guild Wars; Arena" where it was PvP only .. no rp and everyone had everything they wanted or needed without it interfereing with the balance they have put in placew in the current system. It would damn sure cut out all this complaining from the two camps that we have now.

I apologize if I really offended any of your sensibilities, but I honestly can't fathom how getting yourselves so wound up like you do. Most all of you admit that GW has a lot less grind than you see in your typical MMO. SO it isn't perfect. It probably won't be anytime soon. A lot of you got spoiled during the BWE's. I think that has a lot to do with it. If they'd have had the system in play during BWE's like it was on release, I doubt we'd be seeing nearly as much intensity in the complaints. You'd all still grumble, but would be happy that it wasn't going to take you nearly as long as in other games.

You've all paid for your game and got what was advertised if not what you thought you were getting. The devs are working on the proble to try to alleviate some of your concerns. Give it a chance and stop worrying so much for now. ALL of you are in the same boat. Every guild has its members that can play the extra hours and get a few more skills or runes that the more casual player doesn't have time for. But the system is so random that you don't know for certain who has what. Until and IF you ever get your level playing field, think of it as an extra challenge and raise your game to the best level you can. WIth the exception of individuals, overall there isn't any one guild that is going to have an overwhelming advantage unless it is a group that does nothing else all day and night.. every day. Your chances right now are as good as the next person's.

However badly I've put it, that is what I've been trying to say.. you are all in the same boat. It isn't like there are a few mystery guilds that have everything while you are suffering away.. All of you are suffering pretty much equally. And it sux that some folks have decided to put more time in or have just plain been luckier, but you either have to do the best with what you have for now or quit playing. If you were truly of a mind to quit, you would have.. so apparently you like the game and just want it to be better for your play style.

Just do your best and enjoy it as best you can. Hopefully it will improve enough that if not truly happy, you'll at least be somewhat satisfied.

[AirOnG]

Originally Posted by Corwin_Andros

However badly I've put it, that is what I've been trying to say.. you are all in the same boat. It isn't like there are a few mystery guilds that have everything while you are suffering away.. All of you are suffering pretty much equally. And it sux that some folks have decided to put more time in or have just plain been luckier, but you either have to do the best with what you have for now or quit playing. If you were truly of a mind to quit, you would have.. so apparently you like the game and just want it to be better for your play style.

You're saying PvPers should suffer to play the game on a level competitive playing field, and that we should suffer through it just because that's the way it is. Awesome.

I'd prefer a segregated PvP playerbase rather than the current situation. The higher boss spawns and the new rune changes are not a good compromise and still requires hours of grinding.

[Corwin_Andros]

Originally Posted by AirOnG

You're saying PvPers should suffer to play the game on a level competitive playing field, and that we should suffer through it just because. Awesome.

What I'm saying.. and I'll try this one last time so try not to take things out of context this time.. For now at least, things are not going to be what you want them to be and may well never be. While it would be great if they can fix it so that you can compete the way you folks want to, it will take time at the very least. So in that light yes, if you want to play GW, you'll have to slog through it for now and hope like hell they can fix it at least well enough that you are content with it. Seriously though in what other game other than a FPS have you ever had a truly level playing field?

You have to realize that what you are asking them to do would totally disrupt the balance in this game that they have put in place. The game is made to be played in its entirety not just one side or the other. If one were to do that then the game is about perfect playwise as is. Not necesarily a pefect game but balanced between the 2 aspects

Obviously for people that have no interest in PvE, its not what you want it to be. I think EVEYONE should be able to enjoy the game. But if and when they make it so that you PvP folks have your level playing field, it won't likely be soon. I think that they will try to accomodate as much of the community as they can, but won't compromise the integrety of the system that they have designed. I'm sorry that it makes the game less than palatable for you all. Right now the only solution I see is to split the game in two and I can't see that happening.

I've actually made the suggestion before and I'll make it again:

What needs done is that we all as a commnity, collectively come up with ideas to accomodate ALL of us.. or at leat the majority. That means getting out of the "My side is more important that yours" mindset and actually work together to give the devs ideas on how they might approach this mess.

Obviously the UAS idea isn't gonna fly. SO what will?

Do we separate the game? That would work. But which side would control things like WaW? WHo's side of play determines which of the 3 regions gets acces to the underworld and gets their team or guild name splashed all over the game?

I'm sure part of that your intense sense of competition would compel you PvP ONLY people to think it should depend on you, but the effects are for PvE/PvP folks. Not so sure about that one.

SO what would you have to do as a PvP ONLY side to get gamewide recognition? It's have to be something different.

Or is there perhaps some other approach to getting you access to skills and items IN the PvP side of the game without seperating it in two.

Make seperate tournament tiers with some sort of option to acquire what you need through PvP action on one level and the REAL deal tournament action on a completely seperate tier.

It would still involve grinding in a way, but it would be in direct PvP competion so that you would be getting skills as a reward for kicking some other teams ass and not a bunch of AI mobs. Would that be more acceptable? It might take some time to get what you want, but if it were set up right, teams or even individuals with everyting already unlocked could not compete in the acquisition tournaments.

Come on guys work with me here. I'm not against you at all, but this really has to be a united effort if its to be something that ANet is gonna take seriously.

[DrSLUGFly]

Originally Posted by Lazarous

As to the rest of the community not missing people that leave. thats true right up until the point where the game dies alone and forgotten.

I can suggest many things better to do with your life than to build it around bringing down a game company which didn't satisfy your desires. But if that's your style then so be it... and good luck. If the game does die alone and forgotten then we will be none the worse for it, having moved on to some other game. Your goal will have been accomplished and you will be successful... sort of... In the meantime, trying to convert us is rather pointless. You're wasting your time on a forum for people who obviously already like and wish to continue this game when you could be out on the street passing out anti-gw fliers and signs and picketing games stores...

[john little]

besides, how would you feel if you were one of the members of the top guilds that have spent days getting superior runes (or the money to get them) and elite skills, suddenly to be told 'oh, some people couldn't be bothered to get them, so we've added them all in for no effort'. That would make me quit and badmouth the game to others...(not that i am in a top guild or have loads of runes). While people with runes and skills have an advantage, does it actually ruin your enjoyment? PvP isn't just about winning ffs, it's about having fun trying to win. But then i'm sure that if UAS was implemented and you still didn't win you'd be complaining about imbalances, GW isn't really skill based, the top guilds attract all the best players blah blah blah.

Sounds more like a lot of spoiled brats to me, but that's just my opinion.

[DismalClown]

Basically if there was no "grind" there would be no reason for the PvE. If there was no PvE this would not be the game they are trying to make.

I respect game makers for what they do. I either like a game and play it, or I don't like it and don't play it.

Personally this is exactly the kind of game I am looking for, so I'm happy with it. Coming from WoW and CoH I don't see any grind at all. But it won't be the kind of game everyone is looking for.

[Bamelin]

Originally Posted by DismalClown

Basically if there was no "grind" there would be no reason for the PvE.

That makes no sense at all.

Personally I played the PvE game because I enjoyed the story and graphics the first time through .

Everything after that first time has been needless grind to get the runes and elites I need to be competitive in PvP.

For those saying it would "break" the game to make two seperate ladders (one with UAS, one for PvE RPG avas) .... How?

How would it break the game? I don't understand.

If a level playing field is SO important to SO many PvP'ers ... what's so bad about the devs doing it (dual ladder) to make us (PvP'ers) happy?

I think in truth the real problem for many PvE'ers is this ... they fear that if a dual ladder was created EVERYBODY would use the "competitive" UAS ladder to compete in and the PvE RPG ladder would be a barren wasteland. Some PvE'ers just can't stand the thought of "fair play" ... they gain their sense of pride from the amount of time they have grinded out their runes and skills ... a UAS ladder would invalidate the sense of pride they get from the amount of time they have spent grinding. Personally I think that's pathetic but that's just me.

UAS promotes a level playing field, one that is based on PLAYER SKILL not the amount of time one has spent in game collecting runes and skills.

A dual ladder is the best solution I've seen out there, a solution that will provide BOTH camps with the playstyle they prefer.

[AirOnG]

Originally Posted by john little

besides, how would you feel if you were one of the members of the top guilds that have spent days getting superior runes (or the money to get them) and elite skills, suddenly to be told 'oh, some people couldn't be bothered to get them, so we've added them all in for no effort'

In a dual ladder system, they'd still have their "earned" advantage in the non-UAS ladder.

I understand where you're trying to say Corwin, but there are only two compromises I can see working from my perspective. Making it easier to grind and farm is not a compromise since it still would require the investment of dozens of hours of farming. The ability to obtain runes, weapon mods, and skills through purely playing pvp in 4v4 and 8v8 or a dual ladder system are the ideas I favor the most.

I seriously doubt most PvEers farm and they simply play the PvE content. The PvPers are the ones who will farm because they need those runes and elite skills to play on a level playing field. Superior runes do make a significant difference and are not simply minor at high level play, even with their health penalty.

[Luggage]

How about UAS with no ladder, locked with ladder - what would you play?